Traditional county signs + M474 forum

Wed, 29 Jan 2025 18:08:09 GMT

Hello, two questions please, first for forum, second general enquiry: 1, What policies if any exist towards signposting traditional counties on the highways network? Can we create a database of potential signpost points (reviewing what signage currently exists), maybe up to around 4,000 signs? I also had a general design idea in mind. Will update any images as necessary in due course. Second general highways question: 2, Does anybody have any interest in developing an M474 mid-Wales motorway? Or does anyone know of a forum who I can ask this? I contacted one or two firms initially but no joy so far. KR, thanks,

Wed, 29 Jan 2025 21:50:51 GMT

Gerald, interesting question, presumably some of the boundaries coincide with existing settlement or local authority boundaries so an additional line or supplementary plate could be added e.g "Historic Mercia". We did do this about 15 years ago in Aberdeenshire - see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Banffshire_boundary_welcome_sign.jpg as an example for Historic Banffshire. I have seen some other signs - there are a couple of examples on this page from Highland Council, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:County_signs_in_Scotland the other examples are existing Local Authorities so don't really count. I would need to check if we got Non Prescribed Sign authorisation - I suspect we did seek it as the colour would appear to be non prescribed although it could have been interpreted as permitted under Tourist signing.

IN any case that which you ask is prescribed in the 2016 Regulations and Diagrams 2928 (page 218) (white on blue for motorways, black on white for all purpose roads) 2401 which can include a welcome message and symbol (page 218) or the option of Diagram 2404 on page 220 which allows an image and or phrase appropriate to the settlement or area,

In respect of Diagram 2404 the example in the regs is white lettering on brown background which appears to be the only color prescribed for England (the background can be any colour except red - in Scotland! Under separate Scottish regs)

In all cases reference is specifically made to Ceremonial Areas or Historic County areas as being permitted reasons or subjects for the signs.

2928 is the simplest most subtle, 2401 is you standard village welcome to sign and 2404 a larger more bespoke option.

In respect of your other question - are you proposing to self-fund this motorway? Presumably the Welsh Assembly Government has a Strategic Transport Policy which would be where these things usually have a genesis.

Sun, 2 Feb 2025 17:56:45 GMT

Let me get back. I take it I can access these diagrams? Gerard

Mon, 3 Feb 2025 12:07:59 GMT

Document here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/pdfs/uksi_20160362_en.pdf And here if you scroll down far enough: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/traffic-signs-working-drawings-tsrgd-2016-schedule-11

Mon, 3 Feb 2025 12:23:15 GMT

OK thanks, will look.

Fri, 21 Feb 2025 12:00:30 GMT

Sorry the two document links above basically lead to the same reference point? We are basically looking at schedule 11 of the master document:

2016 No. 362
ROAD TRAFFIC
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 ?

Tue, 4 Mar 2025 16:23:59 GMT

Yes.

Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:20:29 GMT

Still looking. Sorry for delay.

Wed, 18 Mar 2026 20:33:32 GMT

Original question 1

1, What policies if any exist towards signposting traditional counties on the highways network? Can we create a database of potential signpost points (reviewing what signage currently exists), maybe up to around 4,000 signs? I also had a general design idea in mind. Will update any images as necessary in due course.

Reply on the points:

Re “Historic Mercia” etc.

Not historic Mercia, but the historic counties. See here for an interactive map:

https://wikishire.co.uk/map/#/centre=51.292,-4.121/zoom=7

Or here for a full list:

https://historiccountiestrust.co.uk/countyprofiles

Database

Can we take stock of where all the signs are? I would be happy to have a meeting.

As mentioned, I want 4,000 with a minimum number per county. Not all “main” roads but popular or important crossing / welcome points.

As mentioned, I also have a specific design in mind. A bespoke one slightly different from the one in the regulations.

“Ceremonial” areas

“Ceremonial areas or historic county areas” is a moveable feast. The government’s wisdom led to the creation of “ceremonial counties” in year zero, ie 1997 – this would be fine if they aligned to the traditional areas, which we seek.

So in sum, can we get a group together to:

· Look at locations

· Get a design

· Research costs

· Push for installation.

Original question 2

2, Does anybody have any interest in developing an M474 mid-Wales motorway? Or does anyone know of a forum who I can ask this? I contacted one or two firms initially but no joy so far. KR, thanks

I am not too sure what is meant by self-fund. Of course, I would be happy to help raise funding, or even create a vehicle for this.

Happy to make contacts, eg Welsh Assembly Government “Strategic Transport Policy”.

Additional / final points

· Who ultimately is responsible for managing signs in the country, at trunk and local level, across E/S/W/NI? Installation, monitoring, maintenance.

· Can we develop an app to tell people when they are moving traditional county, for road, river and rail, as they say?

As above, can we have a meeting to discuss any of this?